1 00:00:21,909 --> 00:00:09,100 welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast 2 00:00:28,069 --> 00:00:24,709 hello and welcome to the skeptics our 3 00:00:31,369 --> 00:00:28,079 own episode number 401 for the twenty 4 00:00:34,130 --> 00:00:31,379 sixth of June 2016 Richard Saunders here 5 00:00:36,020 --> 00:00:34,140 with you from a very chilly coldest day 6 00:00:39,079 --> 00:00:36,030 of the year according to the reports a 7 00:00:41,149 --> 00:00:39,089 very chilly Sydney Australia what an 8 00:00:43,389 --> 00:00:41,159 interesting week I've had my friends 9 00:00:46,090 --> 00:00:43,399 what an interesting week I had i sat in 10 00:00:48,799 --> 00:00:46,100 sort of helping out to produce the first 11 00:00:50,270 --> 00:00:48,809 recording of a new podcast and I don't 12 00:00:53,060 --> 00:00:50,280 know what it's called yet mainly because 13 00:00:57,109 --> 00:00:53,070 it hasn't got a name and hosted by my 14 00:01:00,350 --> 00:00:57,119 sisters good on him I can't wait to tell 15 00:01:02,149 --> 00:01:00,360 you more about my sister's podcast and 16 00:01:06,140 --> 00:01:02,159 more or less I think they're going to be 17 00:01:07,550 --> 00:01:06,150 interviewing local women of Note and i'm 18 00:01:09,740 --> 00:01:07,560 sure you'll forgive me when the time 19 00:01:12,770 --> 00:01:09,750 comes that I give that podcast a little 20 00:01:14,690 --> 00:01:12,780 bit of a publicity coming up on the 21 00:01:16,850 --> 00:01:14,700 skeptic zone this week what do we have 22 00:01:18,859 --> 00:01:16,860 for you we have an interview with 23 00:01:21,020 --> 00:01:18,869 Michelle Franklin from the Dow and 24 00:01:23,030 --> 00:01:21,030 skeptics now we spoke to Michelle last 25 00:01:26,060 --> 00:01:23,040 year we're going to catch up with her 26 00:01:29,780 --> 00:01:26,070 see how the group is going and discuss 27 00:01:32,510 --> 00:01:29,790 her recent appearance on radio and I was 28 00:01:34,820 --> 00:01:32,520 delighted that the radio whenever 29 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:34,830 possible contact local skeptical groups 30 00:01:40,430 --> 00:01:37,530 to ask them about triggered legal topics 31 00:01:42,170 --> 00:01:40,440 and this one is a perennial one up in 32 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:42,180 the Northern Territory up and down to 33 00:01:48,649 --> 00:01:44,490 the top end of Australia all about a 34 00:01:51,830 --> 00:01:48,659 poltergeist or at least the claims of a 35 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:51,840 poltergeist poltergeist activity spooky 36 00:01:57,620 --> 00:01:54,810 goings on and will also play a little 37 00:01:59,359 --> 00:01:57,630 clip of Michelle on the radio and I well 38 00:02:01,550 --> 00:01:59,369 done Michele I was very pleased to hear 39 00:02:04,609 --> 00:02:01,560 that coming up after that we have an 40 00:02:07,370 --> 00:02:04,619 interview conducted by Heidi Robertson 41 00:02:10,190 --> 00:02:07,380 the raw skeptic from the Northern Rivers 42 00:02:12,530 --> 00:02:10,200 vaccination supporters Heidi is going to 43 00:02:15,140 --> 00:02:12,540 be speaking to Tracy a member of the 44 00:02:17,059 --> 00:02:15,150 facebook group sub the avian sub the 45 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:17,069 Australian vaccination network or stop 46 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:19,170 the Australian vaccination skeptics 47 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:21,330 networker gets a bit confusing with all 48 00:02:26,209 --> 00:02:23,730 these letters flying around but what 49 00:02:29,050 --> 00:02:26,219 this interview will demonstrate to you 50 00:02:33,450 --> 00:02:29,060 clearly is how a Facebook group of 51 00:02:36,540 --> 00:02:33,460 concerned citizens can really read 52 00:02:40,500 --> 00:02:36,550 Ely and I mean really make a difference 53 00:02:43,310 --> 00:02:40,510 Tracy will explain the impact this 54 00:02:46,380 --> 00:02:43,320 Facebook group has had on the 55 00:02:48,690 --> 00:02:46,390 anti-vaccination crowd an inspiration 56 00:02:51,150 --> 00:02:48,700 and a lesson for us all I think and 57 00:02:54,270 --> 00:02:51,160 following that a look at carl sagan's 58 00:02:56,550 --> 00:02:54,280 baloney detection kit now you may have 59 00:02:59,580 --> 00:02:56,560 heard about this the baloney detection 60 00:03:02,160 --> 00:02:59,590 kit well I'll read out some of the 61 00:03:04,620 --> 00:03:02,170 points Carl Sagan was making to do with 62 00:03:07,290 --> 00:03:04,630 this baloney detection kit I like that 63 00:03:09,180 --> 00:03:07,300 one baloney then to round off the show 64 00:03:10,860 --> 00:03:09,190 guests reporter Kevin Davies from 65 00:03:12,630 --> 00:03:10,870 Canberra and the Australian Capital 66 00:03:14,490 --> 00:03:12,640 Territory we're going from one 67 00:03:18,390 --> 00:03:14,500 Australian territory to another this 68 00:03:20,940 --> 00:03:18,400 episode he will interview dr. will grant 69 00:03:22,410 --> 00:03:20,950 from the center for the public awareness 70 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:22,420 of science at the Australian National 71 00:03:27,540 --> 00:03:25,810 University oh I wish I could just jump 72 00:03:30,030 --> 00:03:27,550 on the next plane and fly down to visit 73 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:30,040 some of these talks now I'm very pleased 74 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:31,690 to announce that the skeptic zone has 75 00:03:37,470 --> 00:03:35,650 now a patreon account if you want to 76 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:37,480 contribute to the skeptic zone if you 77 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:40,210 feel like you enjoy the show and you 78 00:03:47,010 --> 00:03:44,890 want to show your support visit www V 79 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:47,020 the link is right up the top and you can 80 00:03:53,670 --> 00:03:49,930 be a patreon member and there are some 81 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:53,680 rewards oh yes oh yes if you contribute 82 00:03:57,510 --> 00:03:55,570 a certain amount a month over a certain 83 00:04:00,270 --> 00:03:57,520 amount of month i will send you some 84 00:04:02,550 --> 00:04:00,280 goodies some lovely things autograph 85 00:04:04,620 --> 00:04:02,560 things by James Randi and some other 86 00:04:07,710 --> 00:04:04,630 bits and pieces have a look go to 87 00:04:09,810 --> 00:04:07,720 skeptics on TV click the link for being 88 00:04:12,780 --> 00:04:09,820 a patron every cent that you send in 89 00:04:15,810 --> 00:04:12,790 help support the skeptic zone and keeps 90 00:04:17,970 --> 00:04:15,820 it on air or on the internet and in fact 91 00:04:20,460 --> 00:04:17,980 it of course as you know it's only due 92 00:04:22,970 --> 00:04:20,470 to people like you who already chip in 93 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:22,980 by paypal micropayments that the show 94 00:04:29,310 --> 00:04:27,010 exists at all now it was interesting of 95 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:29,320 course the see the news the last few 96 00:04:38,190 --> 00:04:33,010 days of the brexit yeah britain deciding 97 00:04:40,890 --> 00:04:38,200 to leave the EU a result I don't think 98 00:04:42,780 --> 00:04:40,900 many people were predicting at all and 99 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:42,790 this for shadows of story i'll be 100 00:04:46,030 --> 00:04:45,010 covering probably towards the end of the 101 00:04:51,790 --> 00:04:46,040 year 102 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:51,800 collect the magazine from the psychics 103 00:04:56,910 --> 00:04:54,650 in Australia which which lists the top 104 00:05:01,930 --> 00:04:56,920 prediction for the coming year by 105 00:05:05,340 --> 00:05:01,940 Australia's top psychics hmm and just 106 00:05:09,610 --> 00:05:05,350 perusing it before with the news of this 107 00:05:11,500 --> 00:05:09,620 split in the EU and the terrible gun 108 00:05:14,140 --> 00:05:11,510 massacre in the United States a few 109 00:05:16,150 --> 00:05:14,150 weeks back oddly enough there neither of 110 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:16,160 those get a mention can't explain that 111 00:05:21,490 --> 00:05:18,410 well yes I can but we'll get to that 112 00:05:23,470 --> 00:05:21,500 later in the year so far over the last 113 00:05:26,500 --> 00:05:23,480 ten years of me collecting this magazine 114 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:26,510 and collating their predictions and 115 00:05:32,710 --> 00:05:29,210 analyzing them my estimate so far as 116 00:05:34,660 --> 00:05:32,720 they get about ninety-five percent wrong 117 00:05:37,350 --> 00:05:34,670 well that's enough of me at the moment 118 00:05:41,620 --> 00:05:37,360 I'm gonna run downstairs and have a 119 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:41,630 bologna sandwich why not with a bit of 120 00:06:07,730 --> 00:05:43,370 mustard well I'm doing that I hope you 121 00:06:12,420 --> 00:06:10,439 joining me now all the way from Darwin 122 00:06:14,489 --> 00:06:12,430 in the Northern Territory right up there 123 00:06:16,079 --> 00:06:14,499 I think it's in the tropics or very 124 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:16,089 close to the tropics I'm sure Michelle 125 00:06:21,089 --> 00:06:17,770 Franklin can tell me it's Michelle hello 126 00:06:23,549 --> 00:06:21,099 hi hey you going really well is Darwin 127 00:06:27,749 --> 00:06:23,559 actually in the tropics there's a debate 128 00:06:30,809 --> 00:06:27,759 on that oh really the official like the 129 00:06:34,499 --> 00:06:30,819 line of Capricorn that that says north 130 00:06:37,769 --> 00:06:34,509 of here is tropical is south of us so we 131 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:37,779 are above the tropical line but I also 132 00:06:42,929 --> 00:06:39,849 read a definition that anywhere that 133 00:06:45,510 --> 00:06:42,939 gets below 20 degrees ever is 134 00:06:47,809 --> 00:06:45,520 subtropical and occasionally on a really 135 00:06:50,249 --> 00:06:47,819 cold night we will drop below 20 oh 136 00:06:52,260 --> 00:06:50,259 really cold doesn't happen very often 137 00:06:54,689 --> 00:06:52,270 works in the last two or three days have 138 00:06:58,709 --> 00:06:54,699 dropped below 20 overnight so it's been 139 00:07:01,499 --> 00:06:58,719 pretty cold by our standards mmm down of 140 00:07:04,259 --> 00:07:01,509 course named after Charles Darwin which 141 00:07:06,959 --> 00:07:04,269 is a interesting because as a complete 142 00:07:09,029 --> 00:07:06,969 sidetrack to why we're actually chatting 143 00:07:10,529 --> 00:07:09,039 today I remember and for the benefit of 144 00:07:12,299 --> 00:07:10,539 those listeners around the world who may 145 00:07:16,350 --> 00:07:12,309 not know this because it was a long time 146 00:07:18,929 --> 00:07:16,360 ago Christmas Eve I think 1974 a big 147 00:07:21,809 --> 00:07:18,939 cyclone came through and just devastated 148 00:07:24,420 --> 00:07:21,819 Darwin and there was talk at the time I 149 00:07:25,949 --> 00:07:24,430 seem to remember since that it was that 150 00:07:28,170 --> 00:07:25,959 was because the city was named after 151 00:07:31,439 --> 00:07:28,180 Charles Darwin and God was showing his 152 00:07:35,189 --> 00:07:31,449 displeasure oh okay have you heard 153 00:07:37,230 --> 00:07:35,199 that's ahead yeah they hey you go anyway 154 00:07:39,749 --> 00:07:37,240 we haven't spoken for a while the last 155 00:07:42,540 --> 00:07:39,759 time you're on the skeptic zone was the 156 00:07:44,610 --> 00:07:42,550 30th of August last year when the Darwin 157 00:07:47,489 --> 00:07:44,620 skeptics were sort of getting going how 158 00:07:49,649 --> 00:07:47,499 are the Darwin skeptics doing we're 159 00:07:51,959 --> 00:07:49,659 still getting going we've we've had a 160 00:07:54,299 --> 00:07:51,969 fair bit of activity on the facebook 161 00:07:57,839 --> 00:07:54,309 group which has been good we've got 91 162 00:07:59,219 --> 00:07:57,849 members on facebook now I think more 163 00:08:01,410 --> 00:07:59,229 than half of them are actually in 164 00:08:03,270 --> 00:08:01,420 Darwin's so that's good at this 165 00:08:04,740 --> 00:08:03,280 fair few who aren't but now we've got a 166 00:08:07,050 --> 00:08:04,750 nice little group happening we've got 167 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:07,060 quite a bit of activity on the group so 168 00:08:10,620 --> 00:08:08,410 we've got lots of people who are 169 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:10,630 participating in conversations and keen 170 00:08:14,550 --> 00:08:12,850 to to come out and meet up so it's going 171 00:08:16,050 --> 00:08:14,560 really well well I certainly I'm 172 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:16,060 certainly glad to hear that any any 173 00:08:20,700 --> 00:08:18,010 group any skeptical group around the 174 00:08:22,170 --> 00:08:20,710 world has actually has a presence and is 175 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:22,180 doing something and not just sitting 176 00:08:27,330 --> 00:08:25,330 back on their warm couch or your cool 177 00:08:29,070 --> 00:08:27,340 couch and Darwin maybe with a cull of 178 00:08:30,540 --> 00:08:29,080 drink and not doing anything but the 179 00:08:33,690 --> 00:08:30,550 other reason I wanted to chat to you 180 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:33,700 today was you were on ABC radio in 181 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:36,610 Darwin just last week in fact you've got 182 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:39,250 a quite a long interview I thought and 183 00:08:43,260 --> 00:08:41,530 it was all about believe it or not and 184 00:08:45,290 --> 00:08:43,270 yes it's still the 21st century and 185 00:08:48,540 --> 00:08:45,300 we're still talking about these things 186 00:08:50,730 --> 00:08:48,550 poltergeists yeah the same old Humpty 187 00:08:54,090 --> 00:08:50,740 Doo poltergeist from from back in the 188 00:08:55,860 --> 00:08:54,100 90s it just won't go away well yeah well 189 00:08:57,150 --> 00:08:55,870 maybe that's the nature of poltergeist I 190 00:08:59,280 --> 00:08:57,160 don't know for the benefit of our 191 00:09:02,490 --> 00:08:59,290 listeners could you give a little recap 192 00:09:05,580 --> 00:09:02,500 of this whole silly story okay so it 193 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:05,590 started in about nineteen ninety-eight I 194 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:09,850 think there was a story of five people 195 00:09:15,540 --> 00:09:12,850 living in a little house in Humpty Doo 196 00:09:18,570 --> 00:09:15,550 who were being harassed by a poltergeist 197 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:18,580 they got attention all over Australia 198 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:20,290 and I think there was international 199 00:09:25,140 --> 00:09:22,210 interest in this poltergeist that was 200 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:25,150 throwing rocks around and writing words 201 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:28,450 in pebbles and basically making a 202 00:09:32,310 --> 00:09:31,330 nuisance of itself nobody was hurt but 203 00:09:35,490 --> 00:09:32,320 there were just lots of strange 204 00:09:37,650 --> 00:09:35,500 occurrences channel 7 came up from Perth 205 00:09:39,300 --> 00:09:37,660 and did a big story I think it was from 206 00:09:41,100 --> 00:09:39,310 Perth yeah I made headlines around 207 00:09:43,170 --> 00:09:41,110 Australia and got them lots of attention 208 00:09:46,650 --> 00:09:43,180 I think they made a bit of money off it 209 00:09:48,450 --> 00:09:46,660 a lot of publicity for the new channel 7 210 00:09:50,700 --> 00:09:48,460 that had just started up in Darwin so 211 00:09:53,490 --> 00:09:50,710 there's wrong theories about motivations 212 00:09:54,540 --> 00:09:53,500 there they completely banned the Darwin 213 00:09:57,600 --> 00:09:54,550 because there was a different Darwin 214 00:09:59,430 --> 00:09:57,610 skeptics back then a group of people who 215 00:10:00,870 --> 00:09:59,440 were keen to investigate but they were 216 00:10:03,570 --> 00:10:00,880 completely barred from participating 217 00:10:04,980 --> 00:10:03,580 until all of it was over so they didn't 218 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:04,990 actually get to see anything happen 219 00:10:11,210 --> 00:10:07,090 there were lots of news reporters that 220 00:10:13,950 --> 00:10:11,220 came in of newspaper reporters and 221 00:10:15,269 --> 00:10:13,960 various radio stations and things came 222 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:15,279 in and a lot of them claim 223 00:10:19,199 --> 00:10:16,569 to have seen the strange things 224 00:10:21,540 --> 00:10:19,209 happening the evidence that was actually 225 00:10:23,610 --> 00:10:21,550 documented was fairly sketchy there were 226 00:10:26,100 --> 00:10:23,620 a few videos of some things flying 227 00:10:28,110 --> 00:10:26,110 around the room one video that showed a 228 00:10:30,059 --> 00:10:28,120 woman throwing one of those things which 229 00:10:33,119 --> 00:10:30,069 I think turned it all into a bit of a 230 00:10:35,069 --> 00:10:33,129 joke at the end yeah yeah lots of lots 231 00:10:37,049 --> 00:10:35,079 of first-person accounts of people who 232 00:10:40,019 --> 00:10:37,059 swear it couldn't have been faked of 233 00:10:41,489 --> 00:10:40,029 course and I was really it was really 234 00:10:43,110 --> 00:10:41,499 interesting to hear you being 235 00:10:46,829 --> 00:10:43,120 interviewed just the other week on radio 236 00:10:48,780 --> 00:10:46,839 because they also interviewed I think 237 00:10:51,389 --> 00:10:48,790 Catholic priest but they also 238 00:10:52,829 --> 00:10:51,399 interviewed a so-called researcher and i 239 00:10:56,460 --> 00:10:52,839 used the air quotes here on the camera 240 00:10:59,129 --> 00:10:56,470 to you who was putting the case that how 241 00:11:00,840 --> 00:10:59,139 can these things be faked or there are 242 00:11:03,030 --> 00:11:00,850 so many reports over the years which 243 00:11:05,879 --> 00:11:03,040 he's collided going back centuries how 244 00:11:08,309 --> 00:11:05,889 could all these people be wrong but the 245 00:11:11,129 --> 00:11:08,319 bits i've seen and i remember seeing the 246 00:11:12,509 --> 00:11:11,139 video report at the time on TV it's a 247 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:12,519 pity we don't have a copy of that it's 248 00:11:18,059 --> 00:11:15,610 very hard to find they were clearly 249 00:11:19,410 --> 00:11:18,069 clearly it was just a joke because as 250 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:19,420 soon as the camera looked in one 251 00:11:24,090 --> 00:11:21,730 direction something would would fly from 252 00:11:26,970 --> 00:11:24,100 the other where the camera wasn't facing 253 00:11:28,799 --> 00:11:26,980 but I I was very pleased to hear that 254 00:11:31,650 --> 00:11:28,809 they gave you a really good run on the 255 00:11:33,299 --> 00:11:31,660 radio but that must have been an 256 00:11:35,429 --> 00:11:33,309 interesting experience it's not that 257 00:11:37,650 --> 00:11:35,439 easy to be interviewed on radio it was 258 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:37,660 surprisingly well handled from their 259 00:11:41,639 --> 00:11:39,610 point they approached me they asked from 260 00:11:43,439 --> 00:11:41,649 my perspective and she basically just 261 00:11:45,689 --> 00:11:43,449 asked me the questions let me say my 262 00:11:47,970 --> 00:11:45,699 piece and just played whatever I said 263 00:11:50,460 --> 00:11:47,980 she was very very accommodating and very 264 00:11:52,410 --> 00:11:50,470 interested and I think she wouldn't let 265 00:11:54,269 --> 00:11:52,420 on on the show but I think she was 266 00:11:56,220 --> 00:11:54,279 pretty much on our side because we had a 267 00:11:59,069 --> 00:11:56,230 good laugh about it while we were 268 00:12:00,929 --> 00:11:59,079 talking before and after yeah she seemed 269 00:12:02,790 --> 00:12:00,939 to be enjoying the whole thing she said 270 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:02,800 it was all just for a bit of fun and and 271 00:12:09,179 --> 00:12:05,410 you know you heard on the show that she 272 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:09,189 played thriller and Ghostbusters and she 273 00:12:13,049 --> 00:12:11,050 had that funny little intro with the 274 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:13,059 spooky voice so yeah she was turning it 275 00:12:17,429 --> 00:12:15,610 all into a bit of a fun afternoon so I 276 00:12:20,519 --> 00:12:17,439 think it was handled very well and I 277 00:12:22,439 --> 00:12:20,529 like that she let our father tom was 278 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:22,449 there was the priest she rolled over a 279 00:12:28,110 --> 00:12:24,850 while and he let Tony come in and do his 280 00:12:29,010 --> 00:12:28,120 long spiel and then yeah she saved me 281 00:12:30,870 --> 00:12:29,020 for last so I thought 282 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:30,880 that was there was a nice little way to 283 00:12:34,410 --> 00:12:33,010 end it up I thought what we'll do now we 284 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:34,420 can't play the whole thing but what 285 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:36,850 we'll do now is I'll play a short clip 286 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:38,770 from you on the radio program to give 287 00:12:44,310 --> 00:12:41,290 people an idea and I really love the 288 00:12:48,210 --> 00:12:44,320 idea of the Darwin skeptics what exactly 289 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:48,220 is a skeptic basically somebody who 290 00:12:54,030 --> 00:12:51,970 wants to find the truth so we go into a 291 00:12:56,190 --> 00:12:54,040 situation not knowing what the answer is 292 00:12:58,860 --> 00:12:56,200 and we want to know the truth of the 293 00:13:00,900 --> 00:12:58,870 situation we don't want to confirm any 294 00:13:03,060 --> 00:13:00,910 preconceived beliefs we just want to 295 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:03,070 know what's actually happening so we 296 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:05,290 look for evidence and we're open to the 297 00:13:12,210 --> 00:13:08,410 possibility that whatever we think is 298 00:13:14,220 --> 00:13:12,220 wrong we have to accept that in our 299 00:13:17,550 --> 00:13:14,230 lives at least some of the time we are 300 00:13:20,940 --> 00:13:17,560 going to be wrong so a skeptics goal is 301 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:20,950 to be less wrong or to be wrong less 302 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:24,010 often so to do that you need to learn 303 00:13:28,530 --> 00:13:26,770 how to recognize when you are wrong so 304 00:13:30,270 --> 00:13:28,540 that you don't become dogmatic about 305 00:13:32,550 --> 00:13:30,280 something that you believe that you 306 00:13:35,100 --> 00:13:32,560 don't start dismissing evidence and and 307 00:13:37,710 --> 00:13:35,110 holding on to some preconceived notion 308 00:13:39,990 --> 00:13:37,720 you have to always look at the evidence 309 00:13:42,330 --> 00:13:40,000 find what what the evidence actually 310 00:13:46,380 --> 00:13:42,340 says and be willing to change your mind 311 00:13:48,330 --> 00:13:46,390 when that evidence shows that probably 312 00:13:49,650 --> 00:13:48,340 the ghosts aren't real you have to sort 313 00:13:53,340 --> 00:13:49,660 of change your view and say alright 314 00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:53,350 whatever I saw probably wasn't or if you 315 00:13:59,220 --> 00:13:55,930 find some really irrefutable evidence 316 00:14:00,330 --> 00:13:59,230 that shows that ghosts are real then you 317 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:00,340 have to be willing to change your mind 318 00:14:04,620 --> 00:14:02,890 and say that that is what happened so it 319 00:14:06,810 --> 00:14:04,630 just basically means you have to go with 320 00:14:10,380 --> 00:14:06,820 whatever the evidence shows have you 321 00:14:12,870 --> 00:14:10,390 always been a skeptic I've not always 322 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:12,880 known what a skeptic was when when I was 323 00:14:16,350 --> 00:14:14,890 younger I always thought skeptic and 324 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:16,360 cynic with the same thing which 325 00:14:22,020 --> 00:14:18,730 obviously they're not cynic is somebody 326 00:14:23,940 --> 00:14:22,030 who wants things to be not true and one 327 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:23,950 wants to prove things wrong and that's 328 00:14:27,510 --> 00:14:25,450 not what a skeptic is but I think I 329 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:27,520 always have been because I've always 330 00:14:31,620 --> 00:14:29,850 otherwise love science and I've always 331 00:14:33,510 --> 00:14:31,630 questioned things and I've always 332 00:14:35,820 --> 00:14:33,520 wondered about things there was a time 333 00:14:37,710 --> 00:14:35,830 when I believed in you know the aliens 334 00:14:41,460 --> 00:14:37,720 built the pyramids on Mars and things 335 00:14:43,049 --> 00:14:41,470 like that as soon as I saw evidence and 336 00:14:45,509 --> 00:14:43,059 read you know the reason I 337 00:14:47,039 --> 00:14:45,519 for and against I always changed my mind 338 00:14:48,659 --> 00:14:47,049 so I think that means I always was a 339 00:14:50,339 --> 00:14:48,669 skeptic I just didn't always has the 340 00:14:53,009 --> 00:14:50,349 evidence at hand when I used to believe 341 00:14:54,839 --> 00:14:53,019 strange things yes well I thought you 342 00:14:57,209 --> 00:14:54,849 came across very well as as I was 343 00:15:00,179 --> 00:14:57,219 listening in on line here in Sydney when 344 00:15:02,309 --> 00:15:00,189 you're on Darwin radio and I heard her 345 00:15:05,039 --> 00:15:02,319 read out your tweet that was very well 346 00:15:06,869 --> 00:15:05,049 placed that's right well it was a 347 00:15:10,289 --> 00:15:06,879 facebook i was commenting as I was 348 00:15:12,179 --> 00:15:10,299 listening and my comment when the 349 00:15:16,169 --> 00:15:12,189 paranormal guy was speaking I think my 350 00:15:18,539 --> 00:15:16,179 comment was things just don't fly stones 351 00:15:20,489 --> 00:15:18,549 pebbles pens whatever just don't fly 352 00:15:23,369 --> 00:15:20,499 around rooms of their own accord that 353 00:15:26,009 --> 00:15:23,379 you have to look at the the physics of 354 00:15:27,629 --> 00:15:26,019 it assuming something has flown across a 355 00:15:30,989 --> 00:15:27,639 room where there must be a force acting 356 00:15:32,909 --> 00:15:30,999 upon it I like to do that bring in the 357 00:15:34,469 --> 00:15:32,919 physics was somebody blowing hard was 358 00:15:37,469 --> 00:15:34,479 there somebody throwing it what other 359 00:15:38,939 --> 00:15:37,479 force can can describe something flying 360 00:15:40,949 --> 00:15:38,949 around the room we just can't say a 361 00:15:42,749 --> 00:15:40,959 spirit movement you mentioned in your 362 00:15:46,439 --> 00:15:42,759 tweet and she then spoke about the 363 00:15:49,199 --> 00:15:46,449 theory about placing things on ceiling 364 00:15:51,749 --> 00:15:49,209 fans and then as the fan speed up and 365 00:15:55,469 --> 00:15:51,759 they pick up momentum the items fly off 366 00:15:58,109 --> 00:15:55,479 but I was with a friend at the time 367 00:15:59,729 --> 00:15:58,119 listening to the radio show and he lived 368 00:16:01,919 --> 00:15:59,739 in Darwin at the time he lived in humpty 369 00:16:04,109 --> 00:16:01,929 doo at the time so he remembers it quite 370 00:16:06,689 --> 00:16:04,119 well and he said the conversation at the 371 00:16:08,789 --> 00:16:06,699 time was that they had put mud on the 372 00:16:10,889 --> 00:16:08,799 top of the ceiling fans and anchored the 373 00:16:14,819 --> 00:16:10,899 object with the mud and then as the mud 374 00:16:17,549 --> 00:16:14,829 dried out it lost its stickiness yeah 375 00:16:19,859 --> 00:16:17,559 that's why they would come off hours 376 00:16:21,569 --> 00:16:19,869 after and there was nobody there at the 377 00:16:24,919 --> 00:16:21,579 time which sounds like a very reasonable 378 00:16:28,079 --> 00:16:24,929 way to have done it yes I remember that 379 00:16:31,469 --> 00:16:28,089 theory at the time over what I heard was 380 00:16:34,109 --> 00:16:31,479 it was possibly sticky tape and things 381 00:16:35,999 --> 00:16:34,119 were tape just loosely on and as the fan 382 00:16:37,439 --> 00:16:36,009 picked up momentum the rocks and so 383 00:16:40,079 --> 00:16:37,449 forth would be would be flung off 384 00:16:42,959 --> 00:16:40,089 thinking about it now what a dangerous 385 00:16:45,479 --> 00:16:42,969 thing to do because I reckon having 386 00:16:46,619 --> 00:16:45,489 rocks fly off a fat who knows where 387 00:16:49,109 --> 00:16:46,629 they're going to do or what they're 388 00:16:51,629 --> 00:16:49,119 going to hit so that seems pretty pretty 389 00:16:54,479 --> 00:16:51,639 silly that works in in their favor as 390 00:16:56,820 --> 00:16:54,489 well like if I was that woman who who 391 00:16:59,550 --> 00:16:56,830 was there all the time with you 392 00:17:01,170 --> 00:16:59,560 a toddler in the house I wouldn't be 393 00:17:03,750 --> 00:17:01,180 sticking knives to fans and letting my 394 00:17:06,150 --> 00:17:03,760 toddler wander around in the house it 395 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:06,160 makes me wonder if yeah maybe it wasn't 396 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:09,610 her maybe I don't know it well again yes 397 00:17:12,990 --> 00:17:10,930 of course there's a lot still a lot of 398 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:13,000 mystery revolving around it but but then 399 00:17:15,810 --> 00:17:14,530 again if I honestly believe there was a 400 00:17:18,329 --> 00:17:15,820 ghost in the house i probably wouldn't 401 00:17:20,940 --> 00:17:18,339 keep my tongue very though that's right 402 00:17:22,890 --> 00:17:20,950 but it's sort of now part of the 403 00:17:25,140 --> 00:17:22,900 Northern Territory folklore isn't at the 404 00:17:27,449 --> 00:17:25,150 Humpty Doo poltergeist and it's I guess 405 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:27,459 it's looked fondly like the Loch Ness 406 00:17:31,770 --> 00:17:29,650 monster I don't think too many people 407 00:17:33,180 --> 00:17:31,780 take it seriously although the the 408 00:17:35,460 --> 00:17:33,190 paranormal researcher who was 409 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:35,470 interviewed seemed to take it very 410 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:37,810 seriously indeed he was very convinced 411 00:17:40,710 --> 00:17:39,250 that he was right and very convinced 412 00:17:42,630 --> 00:17:40,720 that all the evidence that he saw worked 413 00:17:44,070 --> 00:17:42,640 in his favor like that yeah the fact 414 00:17:47,070 --> 00:17:44,080 that the cameras didn't catch anything 415 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:47,080 was proof that ghosts don't like cameras 416 00:17:52,710 --> 00:17:50,530 to make I know skeptics I've heard that 417 00:17:54,780 --> 00:17:52,720 I've heard that argument before at a 418 00:17:56,550 --> 00:17:54,790 paranormal convention I went to a couple 419 00:17:58,560 --> 00:17:56,560 years ago they said and it's interesting 420 00:18:00,750 --> 00:17:58,570 to note the poltergeists didn't operate 421 00:18:03,210 --> 00:18:00,760 in rooms with cameras I'm thinking you 422 00:18:05,460 --> 00:18:03,220 have to be kidding me he said it was 423 00:18:07,140 --> 00:18:05,470 almost like the Potter gus was playing a 424 00:18:08,820 --> 00:18:07,150 trick on us every time we pointed a 425 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:08,830 camera in one direction the object would 426 00:18:11,910 --> 00:18:10,210 come from the other one another big 427 00:18:13,830 --> 00:18:11,920 there you go it must be hold true 428 00:18:16,980 --> 00:18:13,840 somebody was playing a trick on you and 429 00:18:18,300 --> 00:18:16,990 I'm sure it was the poltergeist well 430 00:18:21,090 --> 00:18:18,310 Michelle listen thank you very much for 431 00:18:22,500 --> 00:18:21,100 this little update and well done going 432 00:18:23,910 --> 00:18:22,510 on the radio I and I thought you did 433 00:18:26,850 --> 00:18:23,920 very well because you brought up things 434 00:18:30,390 --> 00:18:26,860 like Occam's razor and Hitchens razor to 435 00:18:33,630 --> 00:18:30,400 talk to the people so I hope they invite 436 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:33,640 you back when I finished on the radio I 437 00:18:37,620 --> 00:18:35,770 told a few of my friends to listen in I 438 00:18:39,900 --> 00:18:37,630 texted a bunch of people and said I hate 439 00:18:42,420 --> 00:18:39,910 rune in it three o'clock i'm going to be 440 00:18:45,150 --> 00:18:42,430 on the radio and a few of my friends 441 00:18:46,500 --> 00:18:45,160 didn't realize that I was a skeptic it's 442 00:18:48,210 --> 00:18:46,510 just not something that we talked about 443 00:18:49,770 --> 00:18:48,220 before so they few of them had a bit of 444 00:18:51,420 --> 00:18:49,780 a laugh about it and a few of them said 445 00:18:53,910 --> 00:18:51,430 I'll don't come to my house you won't be 446 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:53,920 a skeptic anymore all right well I'd 447 00:18:58,320 --> 00:18:55,450 like to come to your house I mean what 448 00:18:59,760 --> 00:18:58,330 you got but one in particular said she 449 00:19:02,010 --> 00:18:59,770 listened to the show as she sat down 450 00:19:03,630 --> 00:19:02,020 with her notebook and she wrote down all 451 00:19:07,230 --> 00:19:03,640 of these little things she was going to 452 00:19:09,570 --> 00:19:07,240 tell me and as father Tollman as Tony 453 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:09,580 the the author were talking she was 454 00:19:12,900 --> 00:19:10,690 making all these notes 455 00:19:17,070 --> 00:19:12,910 things to tell me and then when she got 456 00:19:19,290 --> 00:19:17,080 to the bit where I was on and i gave her 457 00:19:20,910 --> 00:19:19,300 a couple of tools so i gave her Occam's 458 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:20,920 razor and then I gave her Hitchens rays 459 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:23,290 and I said this is how you assess what 460 00:19:27,660 --> 00:19:25,810 you've seen or assess the claims that 461 00:19:29,130 --> 00:19:27,670 have been made and she she thought about 462 00:19:31,020 --> 00:19:29,140 them and she said there was nothing on 463 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:31,030 her list that was worth telling me 464 00:19:35,550 --> 00:19:33,490 because Nolan past those two tests oh 465 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:35,560 boy I thought that was a true she said 466 00:19:38,820 --> 00:19:37,330 she's going to go back and and have a 467 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:38,830 look at these things again and see if 468 00:19:42,510 --> 00:19:40,690 she can find a better way to present 469 00:19:45,060 --> 00:19:42,520 them to me so I thought that was there 470 00:19:46,980 --> 00:19:45,070 was a nice little win there but that's 471 00:19:49,590 --> 00:19:46,990 great at any time the skeptic can get on 472 00:19:51,510 --> 00:19:49,600 the radio and put the sceptical point of 473 00:19:53,550 --> 00:19:51,520 views to a wider audience i think it's 474 00:19:55,380 --> 00:19:53,560 it's well worth it and again i thought i 475 00:19:58,380 --> 00:19:55,390 thought you came across very well it's a 476 00:20:01,200 --> 00:19:58,390 pity folks we can't we can't play you 477 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:01,210 the whole interview but Michelle once 478 00:20:05,310 --> 00:20:02,650 again thank you very much and how can 479 00:20:07,140 --> 00:20:05,320 people contact the Darwin skeptics our 480 00:20:10,980 --> 00:20:07,150 best way is through our Facebook groups 481 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:10,990 so we have a just a group called Darwin 482 00:20:15,090 --> 00:20:13,450 skeptics we've got 91 members at the 483 00:20:17,370 --> 00:20:15,100 moment but a lot of them aren't actually 484 00:20:19,170 --> 00:20:17,380 in Darwin so anybody who wants to join 485 00:20:21,390 --> 00:20:19,180 in and participate we'd love to have you 486 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:21,400 there and if anybody's passing through 487 00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:23,290 Darwin or planning to be here any time 488 00:20:27,890 --> 00:20:25,450 let us know and we can plan a little 489 00:20:30,900 --> 00:20:27,900 meet up and and get you involved as well 490 00:20:32,490 --> 00:20:30,910 that's fantastic well all the best again 491 00:20:34,350 --> 00:20:32,500 I hope we can catch up and have a chat 492 00:20:35,820 --> 00:20:34,360 soon with more good news but for now 493 00:20:37,620 --> 00:20:35,830 Michelle Franklin all the way from 494 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:37,630 Darwin in the Northern Territory folks 495 00:20:41,580 --> 00:20:39,610 google it on google earth or google maps 496 00:20:58,260 --> 00:20:41,590 you can see where that is thank you very 497 00:21:03,820 --> 00:21:01,450 greetings listeners it's me captain 498 00:21:06,460 --> 00:21:03,830 disillusion on my youtube channel called 499 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:06,470 captain disillusion aye captain 500 00:21:10,930 --> 00:21:08,690 disillusion analyzed viral videos of the 501 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:10,940 strange and unbelievable I explain how 502 00:21:15,250 --> 00:21:13,250 interframe video compression 3d motion 503 00:21:17,710 --> 00:21:15,260 tracking and stock the effects elements 504 00:21:20,020 --> 00:21:17,720 prove that Justin Bieber is not a secret 505 00:21:21,850 --> 00:21:20,030 reptilian alien that those videos of 506 00:21:23,860 --> 00:21:21,860 ghost cars are just unintentional 507 00:21:25,570 --> 00:21:23,870 optical illusions and that lightning did 508 00:21:27,310 --> 00:21:25,580 not strike a few feet away from a girl 509 00:21:30,130 --> 00:21:27,320 on a beach as we saw on the news I'm 510 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:30,140 real fun at parties my best friend is a 511 00:21:34,330 --> 00:21:32,290 lens flare eat a dimmer switch 512 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:34,340 disillusion I do know other people 513 00:21:38,890 --> 00:21:36,290 sometimes they even show up in my videos 514 00:21:41,290 --> 00:21:38,900 people like skepticism is grandpa james 515 00:21:43,360 --> 00:21:41,300 randi sirve de Soleil Acrobat Erica 516 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:43,370 Lynn's weight loss enthusiast Penn 517 00:21:47,650 --> 00:21:45,530 Jillette and the actual Beekman from 518 00:21:49,690 --> 00:21:47,660 Beakman's world I hope you'll check out 519 00:21:51,850 --> 00:21:49,700 my adventures interact with me in a 520 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:51,860 platonic way and even consider becoming 521 00:21:57,220 --> 00:21:54,650 a patron of my work you can do all that 522 00:22:07,060 --> 00:21:57,230 and more on youtube or at captain 523 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:11,000 it's the raw skeptic report with Heidi 524 00:22:22,490 --> 00:22:20,490 Robertson hello everyone listeners of 525 00:22:25,310 --> 00:22:22,500 the skeptic zone would be quite familiar 526 00:22:29,210 --> 00:22:25,320 with the AVS N or the Australian 527 00:22:32,360 --> 00:22:29,220 vaccination skeptics network and also s 528 00:22:34,550 --> 00:22:32,370 avian stop the Australian vaccination 529 00:22:38,660 --> 00:22:34,560 network a Facebook group dedicated to 530 00:22:41,870 --> 00:22:38,670 you guessed it stopping the AVS n today 531 00:22:45,370 --> 00:22:41,880 I'm here via Skype with Tracy who is a 532 00:22:49,390 --> 00:22:45,380 member of s avian and has been very 533 00:22:51,740 --> 00:22:49,400 active in her advocacy for vaccination 534 00:22:54,650 --> 00:22:51,750 firstly Tracy can you tell the listeners 535 00:22:57,860 --> 00:22:54,660 a bit about yourself and how you came to 536 00:23:00,290 --> 00:22:57,870 be involved in vaccine advocacy why is 537 00:23:03,140 --> 00:23:00,300 it so important to you well I work with 538 00:23:05,510 --> 00:23:03,150 children so immunization is an important 539 00:23:07,490 --> 00:23:05,520 factor in that in that I prefer to work 540 00:23:11,390 --> 00:23:07,500 was immunized children and I immunize 541 00:23:15,310 --> 00:23:11,400 myself in order to protect them and in 542 00:23:19,250 --> 00:23:15,320 about 2011 to probably two years after 543 00:23:21,590 --> 00:23:19,260 stop the avian was formed I stumbled 544 00:23:24,980 --> 00:23:21,600 across the idea that people are against 545 00:23:28,430 --> 00:23:24,990 vaccination and that led me to stop the 546 00:23:30,290 --> 00:23:28,440 avian and I've been getting involved in 547 00:23:33,110 --> 00:23:30,300 learning about it all ever since I've 548 00:23:34,730 --> 00:23:33,120 actually it's inspired me to go to uni 549 00:23:37,310 --> 00:23:34,740 and I'm studying a public health degree 550 00:23:38,990 --> 00:23:37,320 as a result now it's become a real 551 00:23:41,270 --> 00:23:39,000 passion and a real interest and 552 00:23:43,490 --> 00:23:41,280 something that I do as much as I can 553 00:23:45,380 --> 00:23:43,500 you've had good five years of being 554 00:23:46,910 --> 00:23:45,390 active with the advocacy that you've 555 00:23:50,270 --> 00:23:46,920 been doing and you are actually 556 00:23:53,390 --> 00:23:50,280 representing s avian last week at the 557 00:23:55,550 --> 00:23:53,400 15th national immunization conference 558 00:23:58,070 --> 00:23:55,560 believe you presented to poster 559 00:23:59,930 --> 00:23:58,080 presentations there so as far as the 560 00:24:02,000 --> 00:23:59,940 first one goes what was the title of 561 00:24:04,190 --> 00:24:02,010 that and who were the authors on it the 562 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:04,200 title with evidence suggests the fall of 563 00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:05,970 the professional anti-vaccination 564 00:24:11,450 --> 00:24:08,610 movement in Australia that was put 565 00:24:13,110 --> 00:24:11,460 together by myself Joanne benim ooh 566 00:24:16,740 --> 00:24:13,120 Rachel Dunlop 567 00:24:20,700 --> 00:24:16,750 and cody and david hawks and that talked 568 00:24:25,799 --> 00:24:20,710 about the impact that s avian has had on 569 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:25,809 the finances of the AVS in all these 570 00:24:31,590 --> 00:24:28,570 letters it gets a bit tricky so as far 571 00:24:33,540 --> 00:24:31,600 as the finances go with AVS n where were 572 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:33,550 they getting their money from and and 573 00:24:37,290 --> 00:24:35,050 how much were they bringing in I 574 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:37,300 probably had three main streams of 575 00:24:44,130 --> 00:24:40,650 income one was membership which 576 00:24:45,870 --> 00:24:44,140 chiropractors were a huge membership 577 00:24:47,780 --> 00:24:45,880 base within professional memberships 578 00:24:52,020 --> 00:24:47,790 that were quite expensive than other 579 00:24:54,750 --> 00:24:52,030 alternative medicine practitioners so 580 00:24:57,930 --> 00:24:54,760 cypher membership there was donations 581 00:25:00,990 --> 00:24:57,940 they quite often ran fundraising drives 582 00:25:02,850 --> 00:25:01,000 for certain issues that they never spent 583 00:25:04,980 --> 00:25:02,860 the money on those issues anyway but it 584 00:25:07,260 --> 00:25:04,990 two of the bank account that they were 585 00:25:09,660 --> 00:25:07,270 selling a magazine as well which is now 586 00:25:11,490 --> 00:25:09,670 defunct and people who have paid for 587 00:25:13,770 --> 00:25:11,500 that main event have an ended up with 588 00:25:16,380 --> 00:25:13,780 their magazines in the end so that was 589 00:25:19,830 --> 00:25:16,390 in Maine three streams of income I think 590 00:25:22,830 --> 00:25:19,840 and in terms of the impact of stop the 591 00:25:25,710 --> 00:25:22,840 avian on that there's been over the time 592 00:25:29,700 --> 00:25:25,720 stop the avian has been working on them 593 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:29,710 the income has decreased 92% so I guess 594 00:25:35,210 --> 00:25:32,170 to put that into context then we use 595 00:25:39,660 --> 00:25:35,220 where they were making about 280 to 596 00:25:42,270 --> 00:25:39,670 300,000 dollars a year Wow yeah and the 597 00:25:45,750 --> 00:25:42,280 last financial records were able to get 598 00:25:47,310 --> 00:25:45,760 a hold of for 2014 they were down to 599 00:25:50,070 --> 00:25:47,320 twenty one thousand dollars for that 600 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:50,080 year so that's quite an impact that's a 601 00:25:55,530 --> 00:25:52,090 big impact how did you measure that and 602 00:25:58,350 --> 00:25:55,540 how did stop the avian achieve that 603 00:26:00,120 --> 00:25:58,360 result I'm really grateful to Dave Hall 604 00:26:02,790 --> 00:26:00,130 who did all the analysis of that 605 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:02,800 throughout the years through Freedom of 606 00:26:08,940 --> 00:26:06,610 Information requests because a BSN or 607 00:26:11,070 --> 00:26:08,950 unincorporated association we were able 608 00:26:14,130 --> 00:26:11,080 to get their financial records to 609 00:26:16,940 --> 00:26:14,140 freedom of information so each year 610 00:26:20,430 --> 00:26:16,950 after their financial records are lodged 611 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:20,440 someone makes an application to get them 612 00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:21,290 and then we 613 00:26:27,070 --> 00:26:24,050 so that's how we got all the details and 614 00:26:29,860 --> 00:26:27,080 then Dave went through and analyzed it 615 00:26:32,380 --> 00:26:29,870 or and he figured out the the ninety two 616 00:26:36,030 --> 00:26:32,390 percent decrease figure I guess 617 00:26:38,830 --> 00:26:36,040 essentially it's been achieved by 618 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:38,840 countering their misinformation making 619 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:41,810 the public aware of the dishonesty and 620 00:26:46,360 --> 00:26:44,330 their financial dealings pushing them 621 00:26:49,540 --> 00:26:46,370 out of the popular media and stuff like 622 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:49,550 that as well reducing their impact you 623 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:51,170 were saying before that some of the 624 00:26:56,500 --> 00:26:53,570 donations they were asking for donations 625 00:26:59,350 --> 00:26:56,510 and those some of those projects never 626 00:27:01,540 --> 00:26:59,360 sort of came to fruition for the people 627 00:27:03,250 --> 00:27:01,550 that donated has there been any reaction 628 00:27:07,150 --> 00:27:03,260 from the members about where their money 629 00:27:10,660 --> 00:27:07,160 has gone no I don't seem to care they're 630 00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:10,670 happy to hand their money over and look 631 00:27:14,590 --> 00:27:12,290 I don't know whether they get distracted 632 00:27:16,390 --> 00:27:14,600 or what I don't care where the money 633 00:27:18,990 --> 00:27:16,400 ends up in the end they just feel like 634 00:27:21,820 --> 00:27:19,000 they're giving it to a worthy cause but 635 00:27:24,250 --> 00:27:21,830 i'm not aware that there's ever been any 636 00:27:26,830 --> 00:27:24,260 pushback from the members about where 637 00:27:28,630 --> 00:27:26,840 the income goes i guess that's a little 638 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:28,640 bit surprising i think we're just 639 00:27:33,550 --> 00:27:30,530 speaking for myself if i was to donate 640 00:27:36,070 --> 00:27:33,560 money to a specific cause that i felt 641 00:27:38,170 --> 00:27:36,080 passionately about I'd want to know that 642 00:27:42,060 --> 00:27:38,180 my money was going where I was assured 643 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:42,070 that it was going to go yes over our 644 00:27:46,300 --> 00:27:44,570 well there you go not sure we can 645 00:27:48,430 --> 00:27:46,310 explain that or what else was in that 646 00:27:51,010 --> 00:27:48,440 first poster presentation I think you 647 00:27:53,020 --> 00:27:51,020 covered the stop Tenpenny campaign as 648 00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:53,030 well is that right in that first placer 649 00:27:58,270 --> 00:27:55,850 yeah we did cover the stock Tenpenny 650 00:28:00,640 --> 00:27:58,280 campaign just the reminders of who 651 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:00,650 sherry Tenpenny is for those who may not 652 00:28:05,740 --> 00:28:03,770 know yes and why there was a campaign to 653 00:28:08,950 --> 00:28:05,750 stop her from coming here to Australia 654 00:28:11,020 --> 00:28:08,960 yes so she's a professional anti-vaccine 655 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:11,030 campaigner in america and she's quite 656 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:12,890 popular over there and has a lot of 657 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:15,770 followers stephanie messenger who is an 658 00:28:20,340 --> 00:28:18,530 australian anti-vaccine campaigner that 659 00:28:23,410 --> 00:28:20,350 some people might be familiar with 660 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:23,420 organized with cherry temp any to come 661 00:28:29,530 --> 00:28:26,210 over here and do a tour that was 662 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:29,540 seminars and dinners and things is 663 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:31,810 stephanie messenger was the author of 664 00:28:36,180 --> 00:28:33,250 melanie's ma 665 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:36,190 Alice measles yes I word got out that 666 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:38,890 there was a tour planned the usual 667 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:42,250 suspects like stop the avian folks and 668 00:28:48,810 --> 00:28:45,010 some skeptics and that swung into action 669 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:48,820 and started the stop Tenpenny campaign 670 00:28:54,300 --> 00:28:51,850 and what was really great to see about 671 00:28:56,250 --> 00:28:54,310 that campaign is just the general public 672 00:28:59,220 --> 00:28:56,260 jumped on board and got involved people 673 00:29:01,950 --> 00:28:59,230 that we'd never heard of before that 674 00:29:04,380 --> 00:29:01,960 weren't involved with what would be 675 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:04,390 doing for so long general community 676 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:06,850 members stood up and said no we're not 677 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:08,410 going to take this you're not welcome 678 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:11,170 here to spread your misinformation and 679 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:15,690 it took about twenty two days or so from 680 00:29:20,190 --> 00:29:18,490 from the news getting out to the point 681 00:29:23,460 --> 00:29:20,200 where the tour was canceled is that 682 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:23,470 right I knew a matter of weeks that's 683 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:26,170 amazing and as far as the other the 684 00:29:30,060 --> 00:29:27,610 other poster that you present it 685 00:29:34,110 --> 00:29:30,070 believed that was about false balance in 686 00:29:36,450 --> 00:29:34,120 the media can you firstly explain for 687 00:29:39,090 --> 00:29:36,460 listeners who may not know what is false 688 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:39,100 balance well the defaults balance is 689 00:29:43,380 --> 00:29:41,650 something that Rachel Dunlop has taken a 690 00:29:46,350 --> 00:29:43,390 real interest in and being really 691 00:29:49,020 --> 00:29:46,360 proactive in and and she's I guess 692 00:29:52,020 --> 00:29:49,030 taught everyone else to follow her lead 693 00:29:54,780 --> 00:29:52,030 on this but false balance it's it's a 694 00:29:56,790 --> 00:29:54,790 media bias where journalists if they're 695 00:29:59,760 --> 00:29:56,800 doing a story they feel that they need 696 00:30:02,610 --> 00:29:59,770 to have both sides of that story 697 00:30:05,340 --> 00:30:02,620 presented and the thing is with things 698 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:05,350 like immunization as we said before 699 00:30:11,340 --> 00:30:08,290 there's no debate there's no other side 700 00:30:14,670 --> 00:30:11,350 of the story there's really no no reason 701 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:14,680 for having an anti-vaccine view in a 702 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:17,890 vaccine story that used to happen quite 703 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:20,530 a lot who were the people that news 704 00:30:25,110 --> 00:30:22,690 outlets and TV stations and radio 705 00:30:26,730 --> 00:30:25,120 stations and newspapers there were those 706 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:26,740 people that they were getting on to 707 00:30:31,350 --> 00:30:28,690 so-called balance the view of the 708 00:30:33,300 --> 00:30:31,360 immunization experts okay well probably 709 00:30:36,180 --> 00:30:33,310 the most common one would have been 710 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:36,190 Merrill dory of course and what are her 711 00:30:41,790 --> 00:30:38,770 qualifications again let's just recap 712 00:30:42,269 --> 00:30:41,800 that her qualifications she knows how to 713 00:30:46,859 --> 00:30:42,279 use 714 00:30:48,599 --> 00:30:46,869 Eagle okay I guess there's that that's 715 00:30:51,019 --> 00:30:48,609 at the heart of what false balance is 716 00:30:53,849 --> 00:30:51,029 isn't it it's putting an expert like a 717 00:30:56,219 --> 00:30:53,859 pediatric infectious diseases specialist 718 00:30:58,379 --> 00:30:56,229 up against an anti-vaccination advocate 719 00:31:01,680 --> 00:30:58,389 with no qualifications in the field at 720 00:31:04,139 --> 00:31:01,690 all to the uninitiated observer that 721 00:31:06,209 --> 00:31:04,149 kind of looks as though there's genuine 722 00:31:09,599 --> 00:31:06,219 division in the community about the 723 00:31:11,369 --> 00:31:09,609 issue and we know that there's not a lot 724 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:11,379 of the stuff that rachel has looked at 725 00:31:15,629 --> 00:31:13,690 around false balance there's been 726 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:15,639 studies done that that actually show 727 00:31:22,829 --> 00:31:19,570 that that having those two unequal sides 728 00:31:26,099 --> 00:31:22,839 in a story is actually more damaging to 729 00:31:29,519 --> 00:31:26,109 attitudes than having an anti-vaccine 730 00:31:33,739 --> 00:31:29,529 story on its own yes and did they stop 731 00:31:37,799 --> 00:31:33,749 the avian has had a measurable impact on 732 00:31:40,979 --> 00:31:37,809 how the media handles false balance with 733 00:31:43,049 --> 00:31:40,989 regards vaccination stories I do I'm not 734 00:31:45,509 --> 00:31:43,059 one of the people who speaks in the 735 00:31:47,989 --> 00:31:45,519 media about vaccinations but there's a 736 00:31:50,219 --> 00:31:47,999 few you do what they do is when 737 00:31:52,709 --> 00:31:50,229 contacted by some media that they 738 00:31:56,219 --> 00:31:52,719 actually asked them what the angle or 739 00:31:58,499 --> 00:31:56,229 the theme of the segment and whether 740 00:32:01,200 --> 00:31:58,509 they're going to have an anti-vaccine 741 00:32:03,869 --> 00:32:01,210 person on as well if they're told that 742 00:32:06,019 --> 00:32:03,879 yes so for example all we've got married 743 00:32:09,930 --> 00:32:06,029 aurion or we've got you know some other 744 00:32:12,329 --> 00:32:09,940 anti-vaccine view on well then the stop 745 00:32:16,049 --> 00:32:12,339 the avian people just decline but 746 00:32:17,940 --> 00:32:16,059 explain why explain that it's harmful to 747 00:32:20,369 --> 00:32:17,950 do those kind of stories and provide 748 00:32:22,379 --> 00:32:20,379 them with some evidence and provide them 749 00:32:24,989 --> 00:32:22,389 with the public health warning against 750 00:32:27,930 --> 00:32:24,999 the avian and stuff like that so rather 751 00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:27,940 than just a client they explain the 752 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:31,330 reasoning behind it and if that we've 753 00:32:36,599 --> 00:32:34,570 been quite successful and so what is the 754 00:32:38,609 --> 00:32:36,609 general response from journalists who 755 00:32:41,159 --> 00:32:38,619 who are then faced with us stop the 756 00:32:44,310 --> 00:32:41,169 avian member or in fact I mean I've done 757 00:32:46,310 --> 00:32:44,320 it before myself or nrvs I I've said no 758 00:32:48,749 --> 00:32:46,320 we will not appear alongside 759 00:32:50,759 --> 00:32:48,759 anti-vaccination advocates but from your 760 00:32:53,369 --> 00:32:50,769 experience and what you've presented in 761 00:32:54,790 --> 00:32:53,379 the poster what has the experience with 762 00:32:57,490 --> 00:32:54,800 journalists pain 763 00:33:00,550 --> 00:32:57,500 when faced with that oh look I figure 764 00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:00,560 Leon there was they weren't too sure 765 00:33:06,610 --> 00:33:03,130 about that but as time has gone on 766 00:33:10,150 --> 00:33:06,620 people really embrace the idea and quite 767 00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:10,160 a few have implemented an unofficial 768 00:33:16,260 --> 00:33:12,650 policy of not having anti-vaccine 769 00:33:18,940 --> 00:33:16,270 advocates on the project on channel 10 a 770 00:33:20,950 --> 00:33:18,950 particularly good with that that's right 771 00:33:23,020 --> 00:33:20,960 doctor rate she's been on that show a 772 00:33:25,780 --> 00:33:23,030 number of times as well probably had a 773 00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:25,790 bit to do with that informal policy of 774 00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:28,250 theirs I think she was integral in their 775 00:33:32,590 --> 00:33:30,530 informal policy yeah good they had her 776 00:33:35,230 --> 00:33:32,600 on a lot and they never have anyone on 777 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:35,240 for the the so-called other side and 778 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:38,450 there was actually an incident early on 779 00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:41,770 we're married or II was going to be 780 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:46,130 interviewed and through talking to some 781 00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:48,770 stop the avn representatives the media 782 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:51,890 outlet diverted their truck from going 783 00:33:56,740 --> 00:33:54,530 to merrill dory to going to interviewer 784 00:33:58,780 --> 00:33:56,750 mother whose children had been affected 785 00:34:00,760 --> 00:33:58,790 by vaccine-preventable disease in in 786 00:34:04,030 --> 00:34:00,770 that same area with the low vaccination 787 00:34:06,610 --> 00:34:04,040 rate so once you explain to them and 788 00:34:08,409 --> 00:34:06,620 they understand particularly now yeah 789 00:34:11,260 --> 00:34:08,419 they're very good at taking that on 790 00:34:13,419 --> 00:34:11,270 board and doing responsible stories and 791 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:13,429 just tell us the segment in the second 792 00:34:19,150 --> 00:34:16,010 poster about the media watch segment 793 00:34:20,740 --> 00:34:19,160 what was all that about with the ABC in 794 00:34:23,740 --> 00:34:20,750 the past they've interviewed 795 00:34:26,740 --> 00:34:23,750 professional anti-vaccine advocates in 796 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:26,750 immunization stories as a result they're 797 00:34:31,180 --> 00:34:29,450 broadcasting misleading content so 798 00:34:34,060 --> 00:34:31,190 there's been complaints to the ABC 799 00:34:36,700 --> 00:34:34,070 audience and consumer affairs and a lot 800 00:34:39,940 --> 00:34:36,710 of those have been upheld and then there 801 00:34:42,970 --> 00:34:39,950 was a story on media watch in which the 802 00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:42,980 hosts actually said to put it bluntly 803 00:34:48,100 --> 00:34:45,530 there's evidence and there's bulldust 804 00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:48,110 it's a journalist job to distinguish 805 00:34:53,260 --> 00:34:50,450 between them not sit on the fence and 806 00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:53,270 bleep balance especially when people's 807 00:34:59,800 --> 00:34:55,490 health is at risk to put it bluntly 808 00:35:01,720 --> 00:34:59,810 there's evidence and those bulldust it's 809 00:35:04,510 --> 00:35:01,730 a journalist job to distinguish between 810 00:35:05,460 --> 00:35:04,520 them not to sit on the fence and bleat 811 00:35:07,750 --> 00:35:05,470 balance 812 00:35:10,720 --> 00:35:07,760 especially when people's health is at 813 00:35:13,630 --> 00:35:10,730 risk that has been a bit of a turning 814 00:35:16,210 --> 00:35:13,640 point as well that little report on 815 00:35:18,849 --> 00:35:16,220 media watch it's almost as I'll put 816 00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:18,859 other media outlets on notice that you 817 00:35:24,849 --> 00:35:22,130 know if you keep doing this you gotta 818 00:35:26,890 --> 00:35:24,859 end up on media watch it was quite blunt 819 00:35:30,730 --> 00:35:26,900 that comment by media watch but very 820 00:35:32,859 --> 00:35:30,740 accurate it is it certainly is ok Tracy 821 00:35:35,589 --> 00:35:32,869 well thank you so much for your time and 822 00:35:37,450 --> 00:35:35,599 if listeners haven't yet come across the 823 00:35:39,849 --> 00:35:37,460 top the avn have a look for them on 824 00:35:41,470 --> 00:35:39,859 facebook and see some of you can scroll 825 00:35:44,170 --> 00:35:41,480 down the posts and see some of the great 826 00:35:45,819 --> 00:35:44,180 advocacy work that they're doing Tracy 827 00:35:48,069 --> 00:35:45,829 keep up the good work thank you very 828 00:35:49,650 --> 00:35:48,079 much thank so much writing thanks for 829 00:35:52,839 --> 00:35:49,660 having me on it's been a pleasure 830 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:52,849 unending this recording Tracy and I 831 00:35:57,609 --> 00:35:54,770 chatted a little bit more and she 832 00:35:59,980 --> 00:35:57,619 pointed out quite rightly that we should 833 00:36:03,370 --> 00:35:59,990 send a shout out to all the members of 834 00:36:05,380 --> 00:36:03,380 stop the avian and similar groups who 835 00:36:07,630 --> 00:36:05,390 are contributing every day to stopping 836 00:36:09,690 --> 00:36:07,640 the flow of misinformation put out by 837 00:36:12,940 --> 00:36:09,700 the anti-vaccination movement every 838 00:36:15,970 --> 00:36:12,950 voice counts and every time someone 839 00:36:19,599 --> 00:36:15,980 speaks out it gives others courage to do 840 00:36:22,050 --> 00:36:19,609 so as well this has been highly 841 00:36:41,910 --> 00:36:22,060 Robertson from the Northern Rivers 842 00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:45,160 hey svenska skeptical the vet vet at 843 00:36:49,300 --> 00:36:47,210 Veterans Court building in the boy talk 844 00:36:52,030 --> 00:36:49,310 none hanger of the skeptic zone that an 845 00:36:55,210 --> 00:36:52,040 ox 0 alpha alpha dog poop science quiz 846 00:36:57,880 --> 00:36:55,220 of skeptical Kevin Thomas a queen pave 847 00:36:59,980 --> 00:36:57,890 very primitive of Punta safe at Spa nine 848 00:37:02,260 --> 00:36:59,990 vivoli you like our local training a 849 00:37:03,940 --> 00:37:02,270 hunter molanda Top Gun warmly boo 850 00:37:06,849 --> 00:37:03,950 installed that on the fence non-local 851 00:37:11,230 --> 00:37:06,859 training button to start time 12 your 852 00:37:13,900 --> 00:37:11,240 bottom add a new hello all skeptics in 853 00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:13,910 Sweden I'm sure you already know that 854 00:37:18,069 --> 00:37:16,130 the Swedish skeptics Association not 855 00:37:20,710 --> 00:37:18,079 only is a big fan of the skeptic zone 856 00:37:22,870 --> 00:37:20,720 but that we also organize lectures pop 857 00:37:29,559 --> 00:37:22,880 science quiz and skeptics in the pub all 858 00:37:31,660 --> 00:37:29,569 over the country go to ww vof se to see 859 00:37:33,790 --> 00:37:31,670 what are seven local chapters are up to 860 00:37:36,220 --> 00:37:33,800 and if you live in a place where there 861 00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:36,230 is no local chapter why not stop on 862 00:38:01,790 --> 00:37:58,940 carl sagan's baloney detection kit if 863 00:38:04,550 --> 00:38:01,800 like me you have been heavily influenced 864 00:38:07,250 --> 00:38:04,560 by the works of carl sagan especially 865 00:38:10,190 --> 00:38:07,260 the cosmos TV series and his books 866 00:38:12,530 --> 00:38:10,200 including the demon hornet world you'd 867 00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:12,540 be familiar with the baloney detection 868 00:38:17,450 --> 00:38:14,930 kit or the fine art of baloney detection 869 00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:17,460 here are some of the points carl sagan 870 00:38:23,900 --> 00:38:20,570 made from the demon haunted world as 871 00:38:27,620 --> 00:38:23,910 reproduced at skeptical science it's a 872 00:38:30,470 --> 00:38:27,630 skeptical hyphen science calm carl 873 00:38:32,870 --> 00:38:30,480 sagan's baloney detection kit to be used 874 00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:32,880 when faced with ideas or wild claims 875 00:38:40,270 --> 00:38:36,450 number one whenever possible there must 876 00:38:44,660 --> 00:38:40,280 be independent confirmation of the fax 877 00:38:47,150 --> 00:38:44,670 to encourage substantive debate on the 878 00:38:51,740 --> 00:38:47,160 evidence by knowledgeable proponents of 879 00:38:55,270 --> 00:38:51,750 all points of view three arguments from 880 00:38:58,550 --> 00:38:55,280 Authority carry little weight quote 881 00:39:02,000 --> 00:38:58,560 authorities and quote have made mistakes 882 00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:02,010 in the past they will do again in the 883 00:39:07,340 --> 00:39:04,410 future perhaps a better way to say it is 884 00:39:12,740 --> 00:39:07,350 that in science there are no authorities 885 00:39:15,950 --> 00:39:12,750 at most there are experts for spin more 886 00:39:17,930 --> 00:39:15,960 than one hypothesis if there's something 887 00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:17,940 to be explained think of all the 888 00:39:22,670 --> 00:39:20,010 different ways in which it could be 889 00:39:26,030 --> 00:39:22,680 explained then think of a test by which 890 00:39:28,910 --> 00:39:26,040 you might systematically disprove each 891 00:39:31,340 --> 00:39:28,920 of the alternatives what survives the 892 00:39:33,770 --> 00:39:31,350 hypothesis that resists this proof in 893 00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:33,780 this Darwinian selection among quote 894 00:39:39,650 --> 00:39:36,450 multiple working hypotheses mmm quote 895 00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:39,660 has a much better chance of being the 896 00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:42,450 right answer than if you had simply run 897 00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:44,370 with the first idea that caught your 898 00:39:50,900 --> 00:39:48,090 fancy five try not to get overly 899 00:39:54,130 --> 00:39:50,910 attached to a hypothesis just because 900 00:39:56,540 --> 00:39:54,140 it's yours it's only a weigh station 901 00:40:01,730 --> 00:39:56,550 than the pursuit of knowledge ask 902 00:40:04,580 --> 00:40:01,740 yourself why you like the idea compare 903 00:40:05,940 --> 00:40:04,590 it fairly with the alternatives see if 904 00:40:09,540 --> 00:40:05,950 you can find Reese 905 00:40:15,240 --> 00:40:09,550 for rejecting it if you don't others 906 00:40:17,579 --> 00:40:15,250 will 6 quantify if whatever it is you're 907 00:40:20,849 --> 00:40:17,589 explaining has some measure some 908 00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:20,859 numerical quantity attached to it you'll 909 00:40:26,370 --> 00:40:23,170 be much better able to discriminate 910 00:40:29,490 --> 00:40:26,380 among competing hypotheses what is vague 911 00:40:32,220 --> 00:40:29,500 and qualitative is open to many 912 00:40:35,130 --> 00:40:32,230 explanations of course there are truths 913 00:40:37,589 --> 00:40:35,140 to be sought in many qualitative issues 914 00:40:41,609 --> 00:40:37,599 we are obliged to confront but finding 915 00:40:44,940 --> 00:40:41,619 them is more challenging 7 if there's a 916 00:40:47,460 --> 00:40:44,950 chain of argument then every link in the 917 00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:47,470 chain must work including the premise 918 00:40:54,950 --> 00:40:50,970 not just most of them 919 00:40:58,190 --> 00:40:54,960 eight Occam's razor this convenient rule 920 00:41:01,250 --> 00:40:58,200 of thumb urges us when faced with two 921 00:41:06,410 --> 00:41:01,260 hypotheses that explain the data equally 922 00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:06,420 well to choose the simpler 9 always ask 923 00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:09,930 whether the hypothesis can be at least 924 00:41:16,550 --> 00:41:13,290 in principle falsified propositions that 925 00:41:19,310 --> 00:41:16,560 are untestable unfalsifiable are not 926 00:41:21,230 --> 00:41:19,320 worth much consider the grand idea that 927 00:41:24,020 --> 00:41:21,240 our universe and everything in it is 928 00:41:27,860 --> 00:41:24,030 just an elementary particle when 929 00:41:30,950 --> 00:41:27,870 electron say in a much bigger cosmos but 930 00:41:34,070 --> 00:41:30,960 if we can never acquire information from 931 00:41:37,550 --> 00:41:34,080 outside our universe is not the idea 932 00:41:39,590 --> 00:41:37,560 incapable of disproof you must be able 933 00:41:41,810 --> 00:41:39,600 to check assertions out inveterate 934 00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:41,820 skeptics must be given the chance to 935 00:41:47,780 --> 00:41:44,610 follow your reasoning to duplicate your 936 00:41:50,930 --> 00:41:47,790 experiments and to see if they get the 937 00:41:53,240 --> 00:41:50,940 same result and that look at carl 938 00:41:55,340 --> 00:41:53,250 sagan's baloney detection kit comes to 939 00:42:04,310 --> 00:41:55,350 us from skeptical science that's 940 00:42:15,510 --> 00:42:08,220 on Maynard com don't owe you hey you 941 00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:26,020 with my dad and Tim 942 00:42:26,030 --> 00:42:31,250 29 just call it 943 00:42:35,570 --> 00:42:33,650 Tim the election is growing quite close 944 00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:35,580 we're here at cafe frou-frou and a lot 945 00:42:39,290 --> 00:42:36,930 of people have been talking about the 946 00:42:41,110 --> 00:42:39,300 major topic that we are facing in the 947 00:42:43,490 --> 00:42:41,120 Australian election the population is 948 00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:43,500 facing the question should the new 949 00:42:51,950 --> 00:42:49,290 national anthem be da da da by trio or 950 00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:51,960 my old man's a dustman oh my old man's 951 00:42:57,110 --> 00:42:54,090 that's me look I've got to go da da da 952 00:42:58,940 --> 00:42:57,120 it's got the right feel it's got the 953 00:43:00,860 --> 00:42:58,950 best lyrics who can't get their heads 954 00:43:07,940 --> 00:43:00,870 around those lyrics even I can remember 955 00:43:09,260 --> 00:43:07,950 them and it's got a good message to the 956 00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:09,270 rest of the world of course you 957 00:43:19,359 --> 00:43:10,770 listening to bunga bunga 29 your 958 00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:21,859 but unfortunately that movie's gone 959 00:43:26,779 --> 00:43:24,690 straight to DVD Tim straight to Netflix 960 00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:26,789 that's going to be the latest way those 961 00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:28,890 things are spoken about we here for a 962 00:43:32,359 --> 00:43:30,930 huge serve in a bunga bunga 29 on 963 00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:32,369 today's show you'll hear some news 964 00:43:37,279 --> 00:43:34,770 that's his opinion and he is entitled to 965 00:43:40,490 --> 00:43:37,289 it you'll hear some crank mail you get 966 00:43:43,789 --> 00:43:40,500 you get the crank mail no do they sound 967 00:43:50,089 --> 00:43:43,799 effects solo we'll find out what's in my 968 00:44:01,970 --> 00:43:50,099 bug-out bag bunga bunga i'm a nerd 969 00:44:04,130 --> 00:44:01,980 calmed are you hey you on the fourteenth 970 00:44:06,769 --> 00:44:04,140 of june now friends at the canberra 971 00:44:10,370 --> 00:44:06,779 skeptics enjoyed a lecture my doctor 972 00:44:12,289 --> 00:44:10,380 will grant a lecturer and researcher at 973 00:44:15,410 --> 00:44:12,299 the Australian National University and 974 00:44:17,450 --> 00:44:15,420 graduate studies convener at the center 975 00:44:21,079 --> 00:44:17,460 for public awareness of science 976 00:44:23,390 --> 00:44:21,089 otherwise known as see pass now after 977 00:44:25,579 --> 00:44:23,400 his talk yes reporter Kevin Davies 978 00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:25,589 caught up with dr. grant for this 979 00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:35,090 I'm here again at King o'malley's irish 980 00:44:39,860 --> 00:44:38,010 pub and I'm here with dr. Weil grant 981 00:44:42,590 --> 00:44:39,870 from the center of a public awareness of 982 00:44:45,770 --> 00:44:42,600 science at the Nu hey well how you going 983 00:44:47,690 --> 00:44:45,780 I'm very well very good very good to 984 00:44:49,940 --> 00:44:47,700 come out and talk skepticism and have a 985 00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:49,950 beer with it perhaps for our list is 986 00:44:54,770 --> 00:44:51,930 particularly for the ones overseas could 987 00:44:57,290 --> 00:44:54,780 you explain a little bit about cps what 988 00:45:01,340 --> 00:44:57,300 it is what it does Marinelli absolutely 989 00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:01,350 love to so we're from well me I'm from 990 00:45:03,950 --> 00:45:02,490 the Australian national center for 991 00:45:06,380 --> 00:45:03,960 public awareness of science we call 992 00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:06,390 ourselves see pass to check us out our 993 00:45:09,650 --> 00:45:08,850 name is quite a long one to say we're 994 00:45:11,900 --> 00:45:09,660 based at the Australian National 995 00:45:16,060 --> 00:45:11,910 University where a small center that 996 00:45:18,230 --> 00:45:16,070 does research and teaching on the 997 00:45:21,530 --> 00:45:18,240 intersection between science and society 998 00:45:25,730 --> 00:45:21,540 so our our teaching our education is 999 00:45:28,490 --> 00:45:25,740 focused on giving science students and 1000 00:45:30,890 --> 00:45:28,500 research scientists the skills that they 1001 00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:30,900 need to go out and have a better 1002 00:45:35,810 --> 00:45:33,330 connection between science society for 1003 00:45:37,670 --> 00:45:35,820 some people that might be to understand 1004 00:45:39,620 --> 00:45:37,680 how people will use their use their 1005 00:45:41,180 --> 00:45:39,630 discoveries and tools it might be to 1006 00:45:43,250 --> 00:45:41,190 communicate their discoveries and tools 1007 00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:43,260 or it might be to understand what 1008 00:45:47,750 --> 00:45:45,810 society might want or it might be to 1009 00:45:49,910 --> 00:45:47,760 solve problems you know for instance if 1010 00:45:52,310 --> 00:45:49,920 you're in you skeptics many of you will 1011 00:45:54,260 --> 00:45:52,320 be aware of the discussions and debates 1012 00:45:56,390 --> 00:45:54,270 over vaccination of climate change or 1013 00:45:59,390 --> 00:45:56,400 any very early very early absolutely 1014 00:46:01,790 --> 00:45:59,400 well we we do research into why those 1015 00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:01,800 things occur how we might make a 1016 00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:03,530 difference in those sorts of spheres 1017 00:46:08,420 --> 00:46:06,450 then our research is there it's looking 1018 00:46:10,340 --> 00:46:08,430 at looking at why these things occur why 1019 00:46:12,530 --> 00:46:10,350 why for example different groups of 1020 00:46:13,820 --> 00:46:12,540 people don't resonate with science that 1021 00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:13,830 I connect to the science that only gate 1022 00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:16,610 and and how we might change that 1023 00:46:20,410 --> 00:46:19,290 they mentioned earlier that one of the 1024 00:46:23,990 --> 00:46:20,420 ways in which you are communicating 1025 00:46:25,100 --> 00:46:24,000 society is through some podcasts would 1026 00:46:26,660 --> 00:46:25,110 you care to talk about those a little 1027 00:46:29,630 --> 00:46:26,670 bit more I'd be very I'd be very happy 1028 00:46:31,430 --> 00:46:29,640 to look at this one well we have done a 1029 00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:31,440 few different podcasts and on a range of 1030 00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:33,450 different topics but the one that might 1031 00:46:39,110 --> 00:46:36,810 be of most interest to your listeners is 1032 00:46:41,210 --> 00:46:39,120 is it's not out yet so so you're getting 1033 00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:41,220 any of the ground floor here it's called 1034 00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:44,490 the wholesome show our goal there is 1035 00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:47,130 really to look at the complex issues in 1036 00:46:51,050 --> 00:46:49,410 the universe in society in the world 1037 00:46:53,750 --> 00:46:51,060 whatever's going on and pull them apart 1038 00:46:57,590 --> 00:46:53,760 now it's it we're very much going for a 1039 00:47:00,290 --> 00:46:57,600 comedy comedy vibe but really trying to 1040 00:47:02,690 --> 00:47:00,300 explore complex issues so we're starting 1041 00:47:04,820 --> 00:47:02,700 on July 13 and podcast listeners will 1042 00:47:07,100 --> 00:47:04,830 probably see it in the week or two after 1043 00:47:10,130 --> 00:47:07,110 it you said oh we who is the second 1044 00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:10,140 person in this that would be my partner 1045 00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:11,970 in crime I guess or who you know there's 1046 00:47:16,820 --> 00:47:15,210 other words for dr. rod Lambert's so we 1047 00:47:20,330 --> 00:47:16,830 go by the moniker of the vaguely good 1048 00:47:22,580 --> 00:47:20,340 doctors our first episode is looking at 1049 00:47:26,590 --> 00:47:22,590 one of us where we're trying to explore 1050 00:47:29,150 --> 00:47:26,600 what it means to have a mainstream now 1051 00:47:30,650 --> 00:47:29,160 society has changed enormously with the 1052 00:47:32,180 --> 00:47:30,660 advent of the Internet I don't know 1053 00:47:33,260 --> 00:47:32,190 quite who I'm talking to here but you 1054 00:47:36,290 --> 00:47:33,270 could be in the range of different 1055 00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:36,300 countries and at the same time 20 years 1056 00:47:40,970 --> 00:47:38,490 ago or 30 years ago many of us grew up 1057 00:47:42,710 --> 00:47:40,980 in societies that that had a sort of 1058 00:47:45,260 --> 00:47:42,720 dominant culture but that's disappeared 1059 00:47:46,790 --> 00:47:45,270 I think has it maybe it's not there it's 1060 00:47:48,380 --> 00:47:46,800 a little bit there it's changing 1061 00:47:50,330 --> 00:47:48,390 enormously we're exploring that from a 1062 00:47:51,950 --> 00:47:50,340 sociological perspective is there a 1063 00:47:54,110 --> 00:47:51,960 website for that is there somewhere we 1064 00:47:57,500 --> 00:47:54,120 can reach it get absolutely you can go 1065 00:47:59,270 --> 00:47:57,510 right now to wholesome show com the 1066 00:48:01,760 --> 00:47:59,280 podcast won't be available until after 1067 00:48:02,930 --> 00:48:01,770 we were after we do the show so July 13 1068 00:48:04,820 --> 00:48:02,940 for the show and the podcast will be out 1069 00:48:07,010 --> 00:48:04,830 the weeks after that now you gave a talk 1070 00:48:08,690 --> 00:48:07,020 tonight didn't you the talk was on the 1071 00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:08,700 relationship between critical thinking 1072 00:48:12,290 --> 00:48:10,650 skills and scientific literacy and 1073 00:48:14,410 --> 00:48:12,300 scientific education what's the 1074 00:48:17,180 --> 00:48:14,420 difference between critical thinking and 1075 00:48:19,220 --> 00:48:17,190 science yeah look this is a really 1076 00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:19,230 interesting question now 1077 00:48:24,380 --> 00:48:21,690 the first thing is you can't do science 1078 00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:24,390 or good science without good critical 1079 00:48:28,280 --> 00:48:26,010 thinking skills but they're not the same 1080 00:48:31,190 --> 00:48:28,290 thing so critical thinking is the about 1081 00:48:33,170 --> 00:48:31,200 the ability to understand how knowledge 1082 00:48:34,849 --> 00:48:33,180 is produced to pull knowledge apart and 1083 00:48:36,950 --> 00:48:34,859 to say okay can we test that piece of 1084 00:48:39,260 --> 00:48:36,960 knowledge and can we critically analyze 1085 00:48:41,240 --> 00:48:39,270 whether it's useful or not whether we 1086 00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:41,250 can trust the sources all of those kinds 1087 00:48:44,750 --> 00:48:43,170 of things science uses a bunch of those 1088 00:48:47,359 --> 00:48:44,760 things but science uses other things as 1089 00:48:48,950 --> 00:48:47,369 well so the scientific process will be 1090 00:48:50,660 --> 00:48:48,960 using a range of different techniques 1091 00:48:54,290 --> 00:48:50,670 depending on the discipline to go out 1092 00:48:55,550 --> 00:48:54,300 and collect new data to analyze that 1093 00:48:58,010 --> 00:48:55,560 data and find the patterns and those 1094 00:49:02,060 --> 00:48:58,020 kinds of things they're related they're 1095 00:49:03,260 --> 00:49:02,070 related fields of the human pursuit but 1096 00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:03,270 they're not the same thing and the 1097 00:49:08,240 --> 00:49:05,810 interesting question for us is that is 1098 00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:08,250 science the only way to teach critical 1099 00:49:12,230 --> 00:49:09,930 thinking skills or even the best way to 1100 00:49:14,270 --> 00:49:12,240 teach the critical thinking skills we 1101 00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:14,280 had a bit of a debate amongst your 1102 00:49:17,510 --> 00:49:16,050 friends colleagues some of us came from 1103 00:49:20,660 --> 00:49:17,520 an arts background some of us came from 1104 00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:20,670 a science background and you can get 1105 00:49:24,710 --> 00:49:22,410 critical thinking skills from a range of 1106 00:49:26,150 --> 00:49:24,720 different places well obviously when you 1107 00:49:27,890 --> 00:49:26,160 said art you're referring to say the 1108 00:49:30,890 --> 00:49:27,900 humanities what about the visual arts 1109 00:49:33,910 --> 00:49:30,900 could a visual artists be a critical 1110 00:49:37,430 --> 00:49:33,920 thinker but it really does appear that 1111 00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:37,440 more education of any sort leads to 1112 00:49:41,180 --> 00:49:38,970 better critical thinking skills now the 1113 00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:41,190 key thing there is that we didn't have a 1114 00:49:44,270 --> 00:49:42,930 lot of visual arts people in our sample 1115 00:49:47,510 --> 00:49:44,280 we had a lot of a lot of different 1116 00:49:50,540 --> 00:49:47,520 things and I do wonder I do wonder just 1117 00:49:51,740 --> 00:49:50,550 from sheer an implicit understanding of 1118 00:49:53,450 --> 00:49:51,750 okay what's going on in the visual arts 1119 00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:53,460 process if someone is very highly 1120 00:49:56,960 --> 00:49:55,170 educated in the visual arts process I 1121 00:49:58,880 --> 00:49:56,970 would say that they probably have pretty 1122 00:50:01,010 --> 00:49:58,890 good critical thinking skills better and 1123 00:50:03,910 --> 00:50:01,020 better to produce the work of art they 1124 00:50:06,590 --> 00:50:03,920 want are they thinking critically about 1125 00:50:07,820 --> 00:50:06,600 okay say it's paint you know they're 1126 00:50:09,500 --> 00:50:07,830 thinking about okay what is going to 1127 00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:09,510 produce the thing that I want the depth 1128 00:50:13,190 --> 00:50:11,130 of color the brains that all of those 1129 00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:13,200 kinds of things they're trying to test 1130 00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:15,330 their own knowledge now this is just 1131 00:50:21,830 --> 00:50:18,090 really conjecture here but I would I 1132 00:50:23,510 --> 00:50:21,840 would I would guess that yes even even 1133 00:50:24,859 --> 00:50:23,520 in something like the visual arts which 1134 00:50:26,720 --> 00:50:24,869 is not necessarily dealing with 1135 00:50:27,630 --> 00:50:26,730 knowledge but the more more educated you 1136 00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:27,640 are the more 1137 00:50:31,050 --> 00:50:28,690 the more that you're thinking about 1138 00:50:32,970 --> 00:50:31,060 processes of production and education 1139 00:50:35,130 --> 00:50:32,980 the better your critical thinking skills 1140 00:50:37,610 --> 00:50:35,140 are likely to be and how long was this 1141 00:50:40,260 --> 00:50:37,620 research over or what period of time 1142 00:50:42,150 --> 00:50:40,270 this was this is basically this this 1143 00:50:45,930 --> 00:50:42,160 research was a large survey that we put 1144 00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:45,940 out last year where we collected 8,000 1145 00:50:51,180 --> 00:50:48,610 people and tested them against both 1146 00:50:53,310 --> 00:50:51,190 their backgrounds in terms of the 1147 00:50:55,110 --> 00:50:53,320 education they did and how they 1148 00:50:56,850 --> 00:50:55,120 self-identify to school some things like 1149 00:50:58,050 --> 00:50:56,860 that against their scientific literacy 1150 00:51:00,480 --> 00:50:58,060 scores and their critical thinking 1151 00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:00,490 skills thank you very much dr. 1152 00:51:06,570 --> 00:51:05,050 willebrand I travel at all you can find 1153 00:51:08,670 --> 00:51:06,580 out more about the Australian National 1154 00:51:13,820 --> 00:51:08,680 Center for the public awareness of 1155 00:51:16,860 --> 00:51:13,830 science at sea pass see PA sa nu e dua 1156 00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:16,870 you and remember to check with the 1157 00:51:21,300 --> 00:51:19,330 Canberra skeptics for their continuing 1158 00:51:35,850 --> 00:51:21,310 series of talks throughout the year at 1159 00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:35,860 Canberra skeptics dot org dot a you did 1160 00:51:39,930 --> 00:51:37,570 you see that UFO sighting that made the 1161 00:51:42,180 --> 00:51:39,940 news what did that latest study about 1162 00:51:43,830 --> 00:51:42,190 alternative treatments really say is 1163 00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:43,840 this photo making the rounds real or 1164 00:51:48,660 --> 00:51:46,810 hoax doubtful news is a unique website 1165 00:51:50,820 --> 00:51:48,670 featuring news about pseudoscience the 1166 00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:50,830 paranormal anomalies and questionable 1167 00:51:55,470 --> 00:51:52,530 claims framed with the skeptical view 1168 00:51:57,230 --> 00:51:55,480 come visit doubtful newscom every day 1169 00:52:00,960 --> 00:51:57,240 for news about cryptozoology 1170 00:52:03,870 --> 00:52:00,970 conspiracies shams scams and more follow 1171 00:52:05,430 --> 00:52:03,880 us on twitter at doubtful news critical 1172 00:52:07,710 --> 00:52:05,440 thinking is essential in assessing 1173 00:52:23,430 --> 00:52:07,720 today's news duffel news helps you 1174 00:52:27,820 --> 00:52:25,870 thank you for listening to the skeptic 1175 00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:27,830 Cernan for those people have written to 1176 00:52:33,550 --> 00:52:30,770 me Henrietta and more the skeptic zone 1177 00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:33,560 cats are doing really well they're right 1178 00:52:37,900 --> 00:52:35,450 behind me now I in fact in the studio 1179 00:52:40,660 --> 00:52:37,910 hang on a second they found a spot in 1180 00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:40,670 the Sun and they're looking at me now 1181 00:52:54,730 --> 00:52:42,890 care to say anything to the skeptics own 1182 00:52:56,590 --> 00:52:54,740 fans yes they're trying to eat the 1183 00:53:01,390 --> 00:52:56,600 microphone they're pretty happy those 1184 00:53:03,940 --> 00:53:01,400 two and I think what they were saying 1185 00:53:06,040 --> 00:53:03,950 there's I can translate their purse hmm 1186 00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:06,050 I think what they were saying was that 1187 00:53:12,010 --> 00:53:08,930 they hope some more people will sign up 1188 00:53:14,830 --> 00:53:12,020 with the patreon at skeptic zone TV and 1189 00:53:18,600 --> 00:53:14,840 help support the show I'm sure they will 1190 00:53:21,120 --> 00:53:18,610 you too yeah I'm sure yeah all right 1191 00:53:24,370 --> 00:53:21,130 they're ignoring me now because you know 1192 00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:24,380 their cat's coming up on the skeptics 1193 00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:25,610 are we looking forward to the first 1194 00:53:32,860 --> 00:53:28,970 report by a new reporter dr. Cassandra 1195 00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:32,870 Perryman and her section called the 1196 00:53:37,240 --> 00:53:34,970 cache files looking forward to that I 1197 00:53:39,820 --> 00:53:37,250 think we might be covering a story some 1198 00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:39,830 of you probably heard about firewalking 1199 00:53:44,080 --> 00:53:42,410 gone wrong I've actually done 1200 00:53:46,420 --> 00:53:44,090 firewalking i did it with dr. carl 1201 00:53:48,610 --> 00:53:46,430 korzeniewski it didn't go wrong for us 1202 00:53:51,730 --> 00:53:48,620 but I guess we sort of knew what we were 1203 00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:51,740 doing and we had a certain trust shall I 1204 00:53:56,530 --> 00:53:54,410 say in the laws of physics and just 1205 00:53:58,900 --> 00:53:56,540 before I go as you heard in the skeptics 1206 00:54:02,140 --> 00:53:58,910 and don't forget to visit Manor dot com 1207 00:54:04,870 --> 00:54:02,150 au for his wacky podcast including bunga 1208 00:54:07,240 --> 00:54:04,880 bunga I had a great pleasure you're just 1209 00:54:10,590 --> 00:54:07,250 last week of being with Maynard and Tim 1210 00:54:13,120 --> 00:54:10,600 Ferguson as we visited the supernova 1211 00:54:16,510 --> 00:54:13,130 science fiction and fan festival in 1212 00:54:19,390 --> 00:54:16,520 Sydney and I happen to know that very 1213 00:54:21,760 --> 00:54:19,400 soon the new episode of bunga bunga will 1214 00:54:24,370 --> 00:54:21,770 come out and there will be a video that 1215 00:54:26,710 --> 00:54:24,380 accompanies that all about supernova so 1216 00:54:29,830 --> 00:54:26,720 keep an eye out for that by visiting 1217 00:54:32,500 --> 00:54:29,840 Maynard com delay you but for this week 1218 00:54:34,960 --> 00:54:32,510 with the cats still ignoring me this is 1219 00:54:36,070 --> 00:54:34,970 Richard Saunders signing off from a very 1220 00:54:42,220 --> 00:54:36,080 chilly Sydney 1221 00:54:44,290 --> 00:54:42,230 Australia you've been listening to the 1222 00:54:48,550 --> 00:54:44,300 skeptics own podcast visit our website 1223 00:54:51,910 --> 00:54:48,560 at wwc a petting zoo TV for contacts an 1224 00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:51,920 archive of all episodes since 2008 and 1225 00:54:57,040 --> 00:54:55,010 our online store please support the 1226 00:55:00,400 --> 00:54:57,050 skeptic zone by following us on twitter 1227 00:55:03,940 --> 00:55:00,410 at skeptic zone liking us on facebook 1228 00:55:05,440 --> 00:55:03,950 and leaving a review on iTunes you can 1229 00:55:09,280 --> 00:55:05,450 also show your support by subscribing 1230 00:55:12,310 --> 00:55:09,290 via paypal for as little as 99 cents a 1231 00:55:13,960 --> 00:55:12,320 week the skeptic zone is an independent 1232 00:55:16,390 --> 00:55:13,970 production the views and opinions 1233 00:55:17,980 --> 00:55:16,400 expressed on the skeptic zone and not 1234 00:55:20,860 --> 00:55:17,990 necessarily those of Australian